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    Spotify's Joe Rogan Deal Is Said to Be Worth Over $200 Million

    It was the deal that helped make Spotify a podcasting giant, but has now put the company at the center of a fiery debate about misinformation and free speech.Spotify was already the king of music streaming. But to help propel the company into its next phase as an all-purpose audio juggernaut, and further challenge Apple and Google, it wanted a superstar podcaster, much as Howard Stern helped put satellite radio on the map in 2006. Spotify executives came to view Joe Rogan — a comedian and sports commentator whose no-holds-barred podcast, “The Joe Rogan Experience,” was already a monster hit on YouTube — as that transformative star.In May 2020, after an intense courtship, Spotify announced a licensing agreement to host Mr. Rogan’s show exclusively. Although reported then to be worth more than $100 million, the true value of the deal that was negotiated at the time, which covered three and a half years, was at least $200 million, with the possibility of more, according to two people familiar with the details of the transaction who spoke anonymously because they were not authorized to discuss it.But in recent weeks the show that helped Spotify catapult into a market leader for podcasts has also placed it at the center of the sort of cultural storm that has long engulfed Facebook, Twitter and YouTube, over questions about the responsibility tech behemoths have for the content on their platforms.It began when several prominent artists, led by Neil Young, took their music off the service to protest what they described as Covid vaccine misinformation on Mr. Rogan’s show. Then clips from old “Joe Rogan Experience” episodes caught fire on social media, showing him using a racial slur repeatedly and chuckling at jokes about sexual exploitation, prompting Mr. Rogan to apologize for his past use of the slur. A #DeleteSpotify social media campaign began calling for a boycott. And some Spotify podcasters publicly criticized Mr. Rogan and the platform.Spotify declined to make company executives available for interviews. Dustee Jenkins, a spokeswoman for the company, declined to comment on the terms of Mr. Rogan’s deal. Representatives of Mr. Rogan did not respond to multiple requests for comment.Even in the frothy podcast market, the deal for “The Joe Rogan Experience” was extraordinary. Spotify had purchased entire content companies, Gimlet Media and The Ringer, for slightly less than $200 million each, according to company filings.With tens of millions of listeners for its buzziest episodes, “The Joe Rogan Experience” is Spotify’s biggest podcast not only in the United States but in 92 other markets, with a following that hangs on every word of his hourslong shows. In its financial reports, Spotify cites podcasts — and Mr. Rogan’s show in particular — as a factor in the long-sought growth of its advertising business. At a recent company meeting, Daniel Ek, Spotify’s chief executive, told employees that exclusive content like Mr. Rogan’s show is vital ammunition in Spotify’s competition against tech Goliaths like Apple and Google.“We’re not in the business of dictating the discourse that these creators want to have on their shows,” Daniel Ek, Spotify’s chief executive, told employees. But dozens of episodes of “The Joe Rogan Experience” were recently taken down.Lucas Jackson/ReutersAs Mr. Rogan faced growing public criticism, Spotify responded by reaffirming its commitment to free speech, even as dozens of Mr. Rogan’s past episodes have been removed. It also made its content guidelines public for the first time, said that it would add “content advisory” notices to episodes discussing the coronavirus and promised to contribute $100 million for work by creators “from historically marginalized groups.”The moves came as Spotify faced growing dissension among high-profile creators. This month Ava DuVernay, the film director who announced a podcast deal with Spotify a year ago but has yet to produce any content under it, severed her ties with Spotify, according to a statement from her production company, Array. And Jemele Hill, the former ESPN commentator, said that Spotify’s defense of Mr. Rogan had created problems with her audience, and raised questions about the sincerity of the company’s dedication to minority talent.“What I would like to see,” Ms. Hill said in an interview, “is for them to hand $100 million to somebody who is Black.”A Pivot to PodcastingFor Spotify, the move into podcasting is the culmination of years of strategy to find a business that is more profitable than hosting music, for which it must pay about two-thirds of every dollar to rights holders.The company dipped its toe into video around 2015, but little came of it. By 2018, the year Spotify listed its shares on the New York Stock Exchange, it was forming plans to pursue Mr. Rogan, hoping to supercharge its market position in non-music audio and to chip away at the dominance of Apple and Google’s YouTube.To make Spotify a player in podcasting, Mr. Ek and his deputies, including Dawn Ostroff, a former television and magazine publishing executive, and Courtney Holt, formerly of Maker Studios, an online video network, set out on a multipart strategy. Spotify would buy audio studios, like Gimlet, and acquire exclusive rights to existing shows. With Spotify Originals, the company would also create buzzy new programs in partnership with creators like Ms. DuVernay’s Array and Higher Ground, the production company of former President Barack Obama and Michelle Obama.Developing a portfolio of podcasts unique to Spotify, as Netflix had built a walled garden for video, was a key aim, according to several employees involved in the strategy discussions.“All music streaming services are offering the same plain vanilla ice cream at the same price,” said Will Page, Spotify’s former top economist, who was not involved in the Rogan deal but is a frequent commentator on the digital media business. “The overarching issue is how do you make your customer proposition distinct.”Growth StrategySpotify has greatly increased its podcast offerings in the last four years — a period of rapid growth in both users and revenue for the company. More

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    Spotify’s Ongoing Joe Rogan Problem

    Subscribe to Popcast!Apple Podcasts | Spotify | StitcherOver the last few weeks, Spotify has found itself in the cross hairs of critics because of its relationship with the comedian turned podcaster Joe Rogan. Rogan’s show, “The Joe Rogan Experience,” has been criticized for promoting Covid-19 misinformation — Neil Young and Joni Mitchell had their music removed from the service in protest — and a compilation of video clips of Rogan using a racial slur on past episodes resurfaced online, drawing more ire.Rogan apologized, and he worked with Spotify to remove approximately 70 episodes of his show from the streaming service, with which he has an exclusive partnership. But the incident raised thorny questions about Spotify’s role in vetting the content it distributes, especially from partners it is in exclusive business with. And it also exacerbated issues it has with musicians and songwriters who believe it systematically underpays them.On this week’s Popcast, a conversation about Rogan’s Spotify square-off, the leverage wielded by musicians and the unwieldy nature of the podcasting business.Guests:Ben Sisario, The New York Times’s music business reporterNick Quah, a podcast critic at New York magazine and VultureConnect With Popcast. Become a part of the Popcast community: Join the show’s Facebook group and Discord channel. We want to hear from you! Tune in, and tell us what you think at popcast@nytimes.com. Follow our host, Jon Caramanica, on Twitter: @joncaramanica. More

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    Brené Brown Resumes Spotify Podcast Amid Joe Rogan Uproar

    Brené Brown, who had put her podcasts on hiatus last month, returned to Spotify, expressing misgivings about Rogan but noting her contract with the service.The social psychologist Brené Brown said Tuesday that despite misgivings she would resume her two Spotify podcasts, which she had put on hiatus while considering the streaming platform’s policies and responsibilities amid accusations that its most popular podcaster, Joe Rogan, was spreading misinformation about the coronavirus.After several prominent recording artists, including Neil Young and Joni Mitchell, announced last month that they were removing their music from Spotify because they were not comfortable sharing a platform with Rogan’s show, “The Joe Rogan Experience,” Brown had announced that she was indefinitely pausing her podcasts, “Unlocking Us” and “Dare to Lead,” to learn more about Spotify’s misinformation policy.“As you may or may not know, I’m under a multiyear, exclusive contract with Spotify,” Brown explained in a message posted to her website Tuesday about her decision to resume her podcast. “Unlike some creators, I don’t have the option of pulling my work from the platform.”Brown continued to express dismay over having to share a platform with Rogan, whom she criticized for past comments, saying that he had made “dehumanizing” comments about transgender people and referring to a 2011 segment in which Rogan laughed as a visiting comedian boasted about “demanding sexual favors from young female comedians wanting to perform onstage” at a club.“If advertisers and listeners support ‘The Joe Rogan Experience’ and Spotify needs him as the cornerstone of its podcasting ambitions — that’s OK,” Brown wrote. “But sharing the table with Rogan puts me in a tremendous values conflict with very few options.”Brown is a professor at the University of Houston whose 2010 TEDx talk, “The Power of Vulnerability,” is one of the most popular in TED history; her podcasts are produced by Parcast, a studio known for true-crime and mystery shows that Spotify acquired in 2019.After Young and Mitchell removed their music, Daniel Ek, Spotify’s chief executive, published the service’s platform rules and said Spotify would add “content advisory” flags on podcast episodes about the pandemic. Over the weekend, Ek confirmed that Rogan had removed a number of episodes after meetings with Spotify executives and after “his own reflections.”Spotify removed the episodes after the musician India.Arie shared a compilation video showing Rogan using a racial slur in past episodes. That prompted an apology from Rogan, who two years ago signed an exclusive multiyear deal with Spotify reported to be worth $100 million.Brown insisted she was not attempting to censor or deplatform Rogan, but rather was concerned with herself and her own audience, and trying to understand how Spotify sees its responsibilities, adding that she thinks podcasters with a wide reach should vet and challenge their guests.“It doesn’t appear to me that ‘The Joe Rogan Experience’ takes any responsibility for the health information that it puts out in the world,” she said, “and I do believe that leads to people getting sick and even dying.”The controversy has moved into the political realm in recent days, with former President Donald J. Trump issuing a statement urging Rogan to stop apologizing.On the latest episode of his podcast, released Tuesday, Rogan called the release of the compilation video “a political hit job” but disputed the notion that comedians should never apologize. “You should apologize if you regret something,” he said. More

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    Fact-Checking Joe Rogan’s Interview With Robert Malone That Caused an Uproar

    Mr. Rogan, a wildly popular podcast host, and his guest, Dr. Malone, a controversial infectious-disease researcher, offered a litany of falsehoods over three hours.Spotify has been rocked in recent weeks by the controversy engulfing its most popular podcaster, Joe Rogan.Several prominent musicians and podcasters have left the streaming service to protest what they described as Mr. Rogan’s history of promoting misinformation about the coronavirus and vaccines. There have been calls for boycotts, and Mr. Rogan issued an apology for his past use of a racial slur and took down as many as 70 old episodes of his podcast, “The Joe Rogan Experience,” without explanation.The catalyst for much of the controversy was a December episode of his podcast that featured Dr. Robert Malone, a virologist and vaccine skeptic. Hundreds of public health officials and professors, citing the promotion of “several falsehoods about Covid-19 vaccines,” urged the service to take down the episode.For over three hours, Dr. Malone and Mr. Rogan discussed theories and claims about the coronavirus pandemic and vaccines. The conversation included a false equivalence between the vaccine and Nazi medical experiments, baseless conjecture that President Biden is not actually vaccinated and inaccurate interpretations of government data and guidelines.Here’s a fact check of some of their claims.What was said“Whatever was in those packages was rumored to include ivermectin. But there was a specific visit of Biden to Modi and a decision was made in the Indian government not to disclose the contents of those packages that were being deployed in Uttar Pradesh, which they’re still there, and Uttar Pradesh is flatlined right now.” — Dr. MaloneThis is misleading. Dr. Malone’s suggestion that Mr. Biden urged Prime Minister Narendra Modi of India to conceal the successful use of the drug ivermectin in Uttar Pradesh, the country’s most populous state, does not add up.It is not exactly a secret that Uttar Pradesh has promoted ivermectin as a prophylactic. The state issued a government notice in August 2020 recommending the prescription of the drug to those who had come into contact with Covid patients, and officials have publicly acknowledged its use throughout the pandemic. Mr. Biden and Mr. Modi met in September, and officials in Uttar Pradesh have continued to publicize the state’s use of ivermectin since, even as India stopped recommending it.Dr. Malone was also wrong that cases in Uttar Pradesh “flatlined” as the world coped with the Omicron variant. Though the case count in the state remained low during the summer and fall, it began to trend upward by late December, when Dr. Malone spoke with Mr. Rogan, and topped 23,000 daily cases in mid-January.Promoters of ivermectin often cite Uttar Pradesh’s low death toll as proof of the drug’s efficacy, but experts say there is no proof of that causal link. It is also worth noting that researchers have questioned the reliability of data from Uttar Pradesh.What was saidMr. Rogan: “But I saw the shot where Joe Biden got it on TV and they didn’t aspirate them. They just ——”Dr. Malone: “I don’t know what to say ——”Mr. Rogan: “I’ll tell you what to say — that’s not the way to do it.”Dr. Malone: “Yeah, and was that really a vaccine? Right, then we go down that whole rabbit ——”Mr. Rogan: “That’s my favorite rabbit hole because of the fake set, remember.”False. Aspiration refers to pulling back the plunger of a syringe to check that the needle was not inserted into a blood vessel. The practice and its perceived benefits are the subject of debate among medical professionals. Mr. Rogan and others have wrongly suggested that Mr. Biden has not actually received the vaccine since his shots were not aspirated. But the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention does not recommend aspirating before administering any vaccines, as it could cause additional pain.Mr. Biden received his booster shot on camera in September, in front of a backdrop that looks like the White House but is actually in the South Court Auditorium in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building. Some social media posts cited the use of the backdrop as evidence that Mr. Biden had not actually been vaccinated. In reality, Mr. Biden and his predecessors have used the auditorium for events for years.What was saidMr. Rogan: “So, if they had just done what Sweden had done and some other countries where they didn’t institute lockdowns and they sort of let people just live their lives and make their own choices, they were saying that millions of people would have died?”Dr. Malone: “So it would be, so it seems.”Mr. Rogan: “But time has shown that Sweden actually had a more effective take on the virus.”This is misleading. Unlike many other European countries, Sweden did not impose full-scale lockdowns, though it has enacted some restrictions, including limiting the sizes of gatherings and imposing partial travel bans and social distancing requirements. But Mr. Rogan is wrong to say that Sweden has been “more effective” in curtailing the virus.“Now, we’re two years into this and Sweden doesn’t really stand out,” Anders Tegnell, the country’s chief epidemiologist, told The Financial Times in November. “We’re not the best, but we’re definitely not the worst.”Compared with those of other countries in Europe, Sweden’s death rate and case count are indeed in the middle of the pack. Among its Scandinavian neighbors, however, Sweden has the highest death rate.What was said“Those surrounding states in the Palestinian territory does not have that level of vaccine uptake at all. The mortality in the surrounding states in the Palestinian Authority is substantially less from this virus than the mortality in Israel.” — Dr. MaloneFalse. About two-thirds of the Israeli population had been fully vaccinated by the end of December, compared with about a third of those living in the West Bank and Gaza. The case fatality rate and cumulative death rate from Covid are both higher in the occupied territories than in Israel.What was said“The C.D.C. made the determination that they were going to make a core assumption — if P.C.R. positive and you die — that is death due to Covid. And so the extreme example, just to show the absurdity: If the patient comes in with a bullet hole in the head and they do a nose swab and they come up P.C.R. positive, they’re determined to have died from Covid.” — Dr. MaloneThis is misleading. The C.D.C. has issued guidelines on certifying deaths that detail how to track the immediate cause of death, an underlying cause or a significant condition that contributed to the death. The guidelines do not require counting Covid-19 as a cause of death when someone has tested positive but died for unrelated reasons.Robert Anderson, the chief of mortality statistics at the C.D.C.’s National Center for Health Statistics, said on a podcast in January that a car crash victim who tested positive and died would not be counted as a Covid fatality in “most cases.”“Maybe the person comes in and they’ve got a very severe injury and they simply test positive for Covid and there are no symptoms that are likely to be incidental to death,” he said. “But if you had somebody who, let’s say, had chest trauma from the car accident and they were, they’re struggling to breathe already. They get Covid in the hospital and they’re showing some symptoms. There, it could contribute.”Understand the Joe Rogan-Spotify ControversyCard 1 of 5A brash personality. More

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    Spotify Stands by Joe Rogan: ‘Canceling Voices Is a Slippery Slope’

    Spotify is not canceling Joe Rogan.Two weeks into an evolving and far-reaching controversy over its star podcaster, who has been accused of spreading misinformation about the coronavirus, and condemned for his past use of a racial slur, Spotify has faced growing pressure to take a stronger stance about the podcasts it hosts.But in a memo to employees over the weekend, Daniel Ek, the company’s chief executive, discussed the recent removal of a number of episodes and made it clear that it would not drop Rogan’s show, “The Joe Rogan Experience.” That show has been exclusive to Spotify since 2020, when the company made a licensing deal with Rogan that has been reported to be worth $100 million or more.“I do not believe that silencing Joe is the answer,” Ek wrote in the memo, which Spotify provided to The New York Times. “We should have clear lines around content and take action when they are crossed, but canceling voices is a slippery slope.”Ek also confirmed that Spotify recently removed dozens of episodes of “The Joe Rogan Experience” after a compilation video was shared online by the singer India.Arie showing Rogan repeatedly using a racial slur on his show. In a video over the weekend, Rogan apologized and called it “the most regretful and shameful thing that I’ve ever had to talk about publicly,” though he also said that at the times he made those comments — over 12 years of his podcast, Rogan said — he had believed that they were acceptable in context. Many commentators found that apology insufficient.In his memo, Ek said that Rogan made the decision to remove the episodes, which appear to number about 70, after meetings with Spotify executives and after “his own reflections.”Ek also said that Spotify would invest $100 million for the “licensing, development and marketing” of music and other forms of audio “from historically marginalized groups.” What that would entail was not immediately clear. Spotify licenses most of its music from record labels and music distributors, and music from Black artists and other minorities are among the most popular on the platform; Spotify has also promoted minority podcasters with its “Sound Up” program, for example. Representatives of the company did not respond to a request for clarification.Since Jan. 24, when Neil Young demanded that his music be removed from Spotify, citing complaints from health professionals about Covid-19 misinformation on Rogan’s show, the company has faced a mini boycott from musicians, and constant criticism online. Joni Mitchell, Arie and Young’s sometime bandmates in Crosby, Stills and Nash, have all pulled their music. A handful of other artists, like the alternative band Failure, have followed suit, while others have staged protests of various kinds. The band Belly, for example, added a “Delete Spotify” banner to its own Spotify profile page, and explained on social media that for many artists, removing their music from the service is easier said than done.In media circles, Spotify’s stance over Rogan has also raised questions about the responsibility of online companies to police the content on their platforms. In recent years, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and others have come under frequent attack for the content they host, usually about politics or the pandemic. They have responded with a variety of measures, but tended to avoid labeling themselves as publishers.That stance has been more difficult for Spotify, given its exclusive deal with Rogan. In his memo, Ek doubled down on recent comments denying that Spotify is Rogan’s publisher. In a company town hall last week, he told employees that despite its exclusive arrangement with Rogan, Spotify did not have advance approval of his shows, and could remove his episodes only if they ran afoul of Spotify’s content guidelines. (Spotify released those platform rules for the first time last week; it was not clear whether the episodes that were removed last week violated them.)In his letter, Ek alluded to growing employee discontent about that position, and said he was “wrestling with how this perception squares with our values.”“I also want to be transparent,” he added, “in setting the expectation that in order to achieve our goal of becoming the global audio platform, these kinds of disputes will be inevitable.” More

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    Joe Rogan Apologizes for ‘Shameful’ Past Use of Racial Slur

    His apology came as listeners said that as many as 70 episodes of “The Joe Rogan Experience” podcast had been quietly taken off Spotify; the company has yet to comment on the reported removals.As pressure has intensified on Spotify and its star podcaster Joe Rogan, listeners reported that the company had quietly removed dozens of episodes of his show, while Rogan apologized early Saturday for his use of a racial slur in past episodes.In an Instagram video, Rogan — whose talk show, “The Joe Rogan Experience,” is Spotify’s most popular podcast, and has been available there exclusively for more than a year — addressed what he called “the most regretful and shameful thing that I’ve ever had to talk about publicly.” A compilation video showed Rogan using the slur numerous times in past episodes of his show; it had been shared by the singer India.Arie, who has removed her catalog from Spotify in protest of what she called Rogan’s “language around race.”Rogan said the compilation was drawn from “12 years of conversations” on his show, and that it looked “horrible, even to me.” The clips, he said, had been taken out of context, which he said included discussions about how it had been used by comedians like Richard Pryor and Redd Foxx, who were Black, and Lenny Bruce, who was white.When posting the clip compilation, Arie said that Rogan “shouldn’t even be uttering the word. Don’t say it, under any context.” In his video, Rogan said that he had come to agree with that view. “It’s not my word to use,” he said. “I’m well aware of that now.” He added that he had not spoken the slur “in years.”This week, Arie joined a small but influential boycott of Spotify led by the musicians Neil Young and Joni Mitchell, who cited complaints by health professionals that guests on Rogan’s show had spread misinformation about the coronavirus.In his latest video, Rogan also discussed a clip from another podcast episode, which he said he had deleted, in which he described seeing “Planet of the Apes” at a theater in a Black neighborhood in Philadelphia. “I was trying to make the story entertaining and I said it was like we got out and we were in Africa. It’s like we were in ‘Planet of the Apes,’” he said, adding that it was an “idiotic” thing to say that “looks terrible even in context.”Listeners noticed that as many as 70 episodes of “The Joe Rogan Experience” had been quietly removed in recent days by Spotify. Neither Rogan nor Spotify has given an explanation, and representatives of the company did not immediately respond to a request for comment on Saturday. Commenters on Reddit speculated that some of the missing episodes may have contained the slur, although that was unclear.Understand the Joe Rogan-Spotify ControversyCard 1 of 5A brash personality. More

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    Spotify Defends Handling of Joe Rogan Controversy Amid Uproar

    The company released earnings figures a week after Neil Young and others pulled their music to protest what they called vaccine misinformation on Rogan’s podcast.As Spotify released an earnings report Wednesday underscoring the importance of podcasts to its business model, company officials said that they did not expect their subscriber numbers to be affected by the uproar over accusations that its most popular podcaster, Joe Rogan, had spread misinformation about Covid-19 and vaccines.The company has been embroiled in controversy since Neil Young removed his music from the streaming platform last week, citing Rogan’s podcast and calling Spotify “the home of life- threatening Covid misinformation.” Joni Mitchell and several other artists and podcasters followed suit amid widespread calls on social media to boycott the company. Officials responded by publishing the service’s platform rules and saying that Spotify would begin adding content advisories to podcasts about the coronavirus.But in an earnings call on Wednesday afternoon, Daniel Ek, Spotify’s chief executive and co-founder, said that the company’s expectations of premium users in the current quarter did not anticipate “churn” caused by the controversy over “The Joe Rogan Experience.”“In general, what I would say is, it’s too early to know what the impact may be,” Ek said in the call. “And usually when we’ve had controversies in the past, those are measured in months and not days. But I feel good about where we are in relation to that and obviously top line trends looks very healthy still.”Ek defended the measures the streaming service is taking to combat misinformation, and spoke of “supporting greater expression while balancing it with the safety of our users.”“I think the important part here is that we don’t change our policies based on one creator nor do we change it based on any media cycle, or calls from anyone else,” he said. “Our policies have been carefully written with the input from numbers of internal and external experts in this space. And I do believe they’re right for our platform. And while Joe has a massive audience — he is actually the number one podcast in more than 90 markets — he also has to abide by those policies.”Spotify has been facing pressure over Rogan’s podcast since late December, when a coalition of 270 medical professionals published an open letter criticizing an episode featuring an interview with Dr. Robert Malone, who had been previously banned from Twitter for repeatedly posting misinformation about Covid-19. The letter said Rogan had a history of propagating “false and societally harmful assertions” about the virus, including discouraging vaccination among young people and promoting an unproven treatment for the virus, and called on Spotify to “establish a clear and public policy to moderate misinformation.”The situation reached a boiling point when Young announced he would be removing his catalog, leading several artists to follow, including Mitchell and the guitarist Nils Lofgren. The R&B artist India Arie said Tuesday that she, too, would be pulling her music from the service, citing Rogan’s comments on race. And on Wednesday several of Young’s former bandmates, David Crosby, Graham Nash, and Stephen Stills, asked their record labels to remove their recordings from Spotify.Pushback also came from several of the company’s other high-profile podcast hosts. On Saturday, Brené Brown, the influential author and host of the Spotify exclusive podcasts “Unlocking Us” and “Dare to Lead,” said she would pause releasing new episodes. On Monday, another popular Spotify podcast, “Science Vs.,” said it would cease publishing new episodes other than those meant to “counteract misinformation being spread on Spotify.” In recent days, the podcast hosts Mary L. Trump, Roxane Gay and Scott Galloway have also said they would either remove their shows from the platform or cease publishing.The company reported strong performance overall in the fourth quarter of 2021, including year-over-year growth in both paid subscribers — up 16 percent for a total of 180 million — and monthly active users — up 18 percent for a total of 406 million. It also said revenue from advertisements had reached a record 15 percent of total revenue. Podcasts — Spotify says there are now over 3.6 million episodes on its platform — have been an important part of its revenue strategy.Whether that trajectory will continue is uncertain. The company’s stock dropped in after-hours trading.“Obviously, it’s been a few notable days here at Spotify,” Ek said during the call. He added that “there’s no doubt that the last several weeks have presented a number of learning opportunities.” More

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    ‘An Environmentalist With a Gun’: Inside Steven Rinella’s Hunting Empire

    Listen to This ArticleAudio Recording by AudmTo hear more audio stories from publications like The New York Times, download Audm for iPhone or Android.There’s an episode of ‘‘MeatEater,’’ the hunting reality show on Netflix, in which the New York Mets first baseman Pete Alonso shoots a mule deer. After he watches it stumble, then fall dead on the ground — this is in the San Juan Mountains of Southern Colorado — he puts his head in his hand. “I think my grandpa is really proud,” he says, his voice shaky with adrenaline and emotion; his grandfather, who died a few years earlier, took him hunting and fishing as a boy. Then he turns to Steven Rinella, the lanky 47-year-old star of the show. “Thank you, Steve,” he says.“It’s very emotional stuff, man,” Rinella replies.While butchering the deer, Rinella carves out chunks of white fat from behind the animal’s eyeballs. “Put a little smidge of that in your mouth,” Rinella says. Alonso, looking a little nervous, does. “You getting it?” Rinella asks. “Raw dough?” The final third of the 30-minute show, like most episodes, is devoted to preparing and eating meat. Rinella changes out of his camouflage and takes on the role of wild-game chef. “Venison makes such a refreshing, invigorating meal,” he says in voice-over narration as he and Alonso grind up the deer’s right front shoulder before they grill burgers that they devour on camera.Rinella is arguably the country’s most famous hunter. The final episodes of his show’s 10th season will become available on Netflix in early February. (The first six seasons ran on the Sportsman Channel, a fishing-and-hunting cable channel.) He’s the founder of a rapidly growing lifestyle brand, also called MeatEater, whose tagline is “your link to the food chain”; in addition to its ever-expanding roster of hunting, fishing and culinary podcasts and YouTube shows, his company sells clothing and equipment and serves as a clearinghouse for all manner of advice, tutorials, videos and posts, ranging from a recipe for olive-stuffed venison roast to stories with titles like “Mother Punches Mountain Lion to Save Son” and “The Best Hunting Boots for Every Season” and “Should Hunters Be Concerned About Deer With Covid-19?” Rinella is the author of six books and has a contract with Penguin Random House to write five more, including a parenting book forthcoming in May. In three years, MeatEater has grown to 120 employees from 10, and its revenue has more than tripled. Blue-winged teals. The recreational pursuit of a small fraction of species sustains the conservation of many others.Natalie Ivis for The New York TimesTo be a hunting celebrity in America in 2022 is to sit at the center of a particularly messy tangle, where any number of controversies are constantly snarled together: over guns, meat, animal rights and trophy-hunting; over the urban-rural divide, the use of public lands, the very way we think about wild animals and wild places in this country. For years, Rinella has talked, written about and modeled hunting in ways that connect with all kinds of people — and not just hunters, who make up about 4 percent of Americans and tend to be more politically conservative. You won’t see him grinning over dead elephants. He eats what he kills, which makes the whole enterprise more, well, palatable to a lot more people, especially those among the 95 percent of the population who eat meat. In surveys, more than 70 percent of Americans say they approve of regulated hunting; the percentage is even higher when getting food is the explicit goal. “One of the best things that Steve and MeatEater have done is to introduce people to hunting through food,” Land Tawney, the president and chief executive of a national nonprofit called Backcountry Hunters & Anglers, told me. “It’s not just about killing things and high-fiving.”The focus on cooking has allowed Rinella to build something of an apolitical island, a place where a Republican duck hunter might share interests with a liberal Chez Panisse-trained chef in Berkeley (I know one who watches the show with her kids). But as his profile has risen, so, too, has the intensity of the pervasive culture-war polemics that make such a refuge increasingly rare, and possibly untenable. After the Chernin Group, an investment firm named after its founder Peter Chernin, a Hollywood producer and the former president of News Corporation, first invested in MeatEater in 2018, the conservative website The Federalist published an article titled “Anti-Gun Democrat’s Purchase of ‘MeatEater’ Could Pose Big Problems for Hunter-Focused Company.” (The Chernin Group now owns a majority stake in the company.) More recently, Donald Trump Jr. and several of his hunting buddies started a publishing platform and podcasting business called Field Ethos, whose website and Instagram account have taken aim at MeatEater. One post, for example, lumps MeatEater among hunting and conservation organizations that are “OK with shotguns for hunting and bolt-action rifles as long as they don’t hold too many rounds, but they aren’t cool with anything that goes against the D.N.C.’s official position.” For Field Ethos, food is explicitly not hunting’s main goal. Its chief operating officer is quoted on a website called HuntingLife.com as saying, “At our core we are about embracing toxic masculinity and rejecting the woke, P.C. culture.”Such antagonisms aside, though, it’s a fortuitous time to be selling the hunter lifestyle. Until very recently, the percentage of the population that hunts has been in a decades-long free fall, prompting headlines like this one from the BBC in 2019: “Are U.S. Hunters Becoming an Endangered Species?” Then the pandemic hit, communal indoor activities shut down and Americans poured into the outdoors — crowding national parks, reserving campsites, hitting the road in R.V.s and camper vans. People bought and borrowed guns, bows and fishing poles and set out, while socially distanced, into waters and wilderness. Sales of fishing licenses spiked. Nationally, the number of people getting hunting licenses started climbing, too, particularly for new hunters. California had 43,000 first-time hunters in 2020. When I called the Michigan Department of Natural Resources to ask about hunting participation in 2020, the guy I talked to whistled and said, “What a whirlwind.” Data suggest that the demographic of these new hunters and anglers is younger, more urban, more female and possibly less white — a notable shift, considering that 97 percent of hunters in the U.S. are white, and 90 percent are men. Rinella’s efforts to speak to the broad spectrum of outdoors people can at times seem acrobatic; guests on his podcast have included the Fox News host Tucker Carlson as well as the founder of Patagonia, Yvon Chouinard, and Rue Mapp, the chief executive of Outdoor Afro, a nonprofit that connects the Black community with nature and conservation. Maybe we are all on Rinella’s island, fishing and hunting and cooking over the campfire together. Maybe, even as we disagree about so much, we can find some shred of mutuality out in the wild.Steven Rinella (left) and companions after an early-morning hunt in Louisiana on the marsh south of Bayou Dularge.Natalie Ivis for The New York TimesMy family might be considered a part of this wave of newcomers. When the shutdowns first began, my husband and I started fishing with our two sons, then 3 and 6. Things got serious fast. We found a motorboat to rent and, whenever we could, ditched our cramped urban home for the open waters of San Francisco Bay and the Pacific Ocean beyond. Instead of children’s shows, the boys started asking to watch “catch and cook” videos — a phrase that brings up some 130,000 results on YouTube. The narrative arc of these videos is timeless, the stuff of cave paintings, really: Protagonists go out seeking fish, they catch fish, they eat fish.The Great ReadMore fascinating tales you can’t help but read all the way to the end.He was in witness protection, but his old life in Harlem kept calling. Going home eventually got him killed.His world was radically altered by “Jackass.” But now, Jason Acuña — better known as Wee Man — has harnessed his fame to live the life of his dreams.Quitting is contagious. When one employee leaves, the departure signals to others that it might be time to take stock of their options.We stumbled into a few episodes of “MeatEater,” too, and watched, without the kids, surprised to see hunting programming with Anthony Bourdainian qualities. (It turns out the show’s first producer and cinematographer also shot and produced Bourdain’s shows.) If Rinella didn’t create the hunt-kill-eat video genre, “MeatEater” has certainly had a very big hand in popularizing it. On YouTube, the boys and I navigated past the weirder stuff — videos of bikini-clad women suggestively reeling in grouper in Florida, say — and found a few content creators we all liked, including Kimi Werner, who features footage of her free-dive spearfishing off the coast of Hawaii, after which she prepares delicious-looking fish dishes with her toddler. (Werner has since signed up with MeatEater to contribute videos and posts to its website and social media platforms.) At bedtime, the boys would cuddle up in their pajamas to listen to readings about fish behavior from a bulky guidebook called “Certainly More Than You Want to Know About the Fishes of the Pacific Coast: A Postmodern Experience,” written by Milton S. Love, an impressively quirky marine biologist at the University of California, Santa Barbara.We caught and ate some sea creatures, including massive, pancake-like slabs of halibut pulled up from the bottom of the bay; a few grouchy Dungeness crabs; some bulgy-eyed rockfish; and one exquisitely teal-colored lingcod. But most of the time we caught nothing — and just reveled in the trying. We chatted up old men in bait shops for tips. We contemplated how we might lure in these elusive, scaly beings. It all felt something like having a crush. Anthropologists who study hunters and anglers write about this experience as a kind of interspecies empathy, in which the hunter takes on the “double perspective” of both predator and prey. I could see this in my older son, Oscar; there was little doubt he wanted to catch fish, but it’s possible, especially in those early months of the pandemic, that what he wanted more was to be a fish. Inside a houseboat where Rinella and the chef Jean-Paul Bourgeois prepared ducks for an episode of “MeatEater.”Natalie Ivis for The New York TimesWhen I showed up at MeatEater’s headquarters in Bozeman, Mont., in late October, I wasn’t sure whether my family’s recent forays as active predators — rather than, say, grocery-store meat procurers — conferred upon me a sort of insider status. But fishing felt like one thing, and hunting with guns felt like quite another. At first, the offices looked like those of any Silicon Valley start-up: the familiar open floor plans, clusters of standing desks, ergonomic office chairs, lots of fleece-wearing young white men with facial hair. Then I noticed the animals: a black bear skin draped over the railing on the central stairway with head and claws intact; an imposingly shaggy buffalo pelt nearby; a taxidermied jack-rabbit head (with some tacked-on antlers, to make a “jackalope”) mounted to the wall. Everywhere I looked there were vaguely intimidating skulls and other bones that I couldn’t begin to recognize.The recording studio on the ground floor was packed with a cross-talking assemblage of guests, a producer and a sound engineer; they were getting ready to record an episode of the “MeatEater” podcast, a weekly chat show that typically runs two-plus hours and receives 2.5 million downloads a month, mostly from major metropolitan centers like New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Denver and Minneapolis. Rinella was describing a recent experience on the road. “We ended up in a tiki bar in Nashville talking to the waitress about opossums,” he said. This waitress had apparently found a baby opossum, fed and raised it and was now posting photos of it on social media. Someone asked Rinella about his own pet raccoons — growing up, he and his brothers had three, all rescued from chimneys or attics. “It’s actually illegal to keep a raccoon,” Rinella claimed before the group. (The rules on this are complicated and vary by state.) “It’s the property of the state; it’s wildlife.” One of the on-air guests, a photographer, jumped in: “I had a pet crow that acted like a dog.”The podcast producer interrupted to remind everyone to silence their cellphones, and the engineer pressed a button to begin recording. Rinella started by introducing his guests. “You can go watch Tracy on Netflix hunting turkeys,” he said, waving at Tracy Crane, the company’s chief marketing officer, who spent most of her career as a marketing executive at J. Crew in New York City and, later, at Beautycounter in Los Angeles. “And crying,” she added. In my hotel room the night before, I watched the “MeatEater” episode from Season 8 in which Rinella takes Crane hunting for the first time. She has never shot a gun before; he shows her how. When she finally kills a turkey on camera, she weeps. Now, three years later, nearly all the meat she eats is wild game, mostly killed by her and her husband. Rinella can have this proselytizing effect on people; among his other notable hunting converts are the comedian and podcaster Joe Rogan, who also learned to shoot and hunt on a “MeatEater” episode.The podcast conversation pinballed wildly. They discussed that time Rinella ate parasite-infected bear meat and got toxoplasmosis; whether animals can get PTSD; hearing loss from gunshots; the music of Gordon Lightfoot; boat-ramp etiquette; a man who swallowed a live, spiky fish to impress his children. “All right, Clay, this is my favorite news article to come out in six months,” Rinella said, turning to Clay Newcomb, one of the company’s recent breakout stars, who dove into a story about how ancient footprints found in New Mexico led scientists to conclude that humans were present in the area earlier than previously thought, dating back some 23,000 years to the Ice Age. Archaeology fascinates Rinella: For him, these ancient people with their arrows and clubs and leather shoes prove that hunting is integral to who we are as a species. “That Ötzi dude they found in the Italian Alps had some sweet boots made out of three different kinds of hides,” Rinella said. Newcomb had flown to Bozeman from Arkansas to talk about archaeology on the podcast because he was making a three-part series on the topic for his own MeatEater podcast, “Bear Grease.” When Newcomb was hired in 2020, he was the owner, editor and publisher of Bear Hunting magazine, a glossy print publication with about 6,000 subscribers. The first episode of “Bear Grease” debuted in April. The podcast now gets more than 600,000 downloads per month. It turns out a lot of people want to hear stories from a guy who cooks his meals in rendered bear fat, calls himself a hillbilly and can rattle off a recipe for bear-grease beard oil.It’s hard to know where all the pent-up desire for man-versus-nature tales comes from, but this particular narrative impulse is clearly wedged deep in our national psyche. The American literary canon is full of men with weapons and creatures pursued — Herman Melville’s whale, William Faulkner’s bear. Even now, when so few hunt, we watch television shows like the Discovery Channel’s “Naked and Afraid,” featuring nude hungry people desperately trying to snare animals and catch fish with their hands. Our politicians, Democrats and Republicans alike, go out to be photographed in camouflage, rifle in hand, snatching at a bit of that all-American hunter mythology.We’ve been at this story so long, it’s hard to tell what is authentic and what is pageantry. In 1831, when the French aristocrat Alexis de Tocqueville set out on his nine-month tour of the United States that would produce the seminal study of American political life “Democracy in America,” he wrote in a surprised tone in his journal about the rise of the hunter and storyteller Davy Crockett, who served Tennessee as a member of Congress: “Two years ago the inhabitants of the district of which Memphis is the capital sent to the House of Representatives an individual who has had no education, can read with difficulty, has no property, no fixed residence, but passes his life hunting, selling his game to live, and dwelling continuously in the woods.”The interest in these Hunter Man stories can seem like posturing, like frontier nostalgia or prepper fantasies — and there’s some of that — but it is also true that the ability to hunt and trap and forage for food is a profound part of the identity of this place and its people. During her confirmation hearing, Deb Haaland, the first Indigenous Secretary of the Interior, who is also a hunter, was questioned repeatedly about hunting opportunities on public lands. “I’m a Pueblo woman,” she answered. “We’ve been hunting wild game for centuries.”Theodore Roosevelt designated 230 million acres as public land, creating 150 national forests, 51 bird sanctuaries and five national parks, in no small part because of his love of hunting.Natalie Ivis for The New York TimesHunting and fishing stories are Rinella’s way of sending out a kind of plea. “I want my work to inspire people to think about the things that they love, to learn about the things that they love and to find it in them to advocate on behalf of the things that they love,” he told me. For Rinella, that thing is the outdoors; he describes himself as “an environmentalist with a gun.” In practical terms, this mostly means raising money for organizations working to protect habitats for fish and game species and urging his followers to get involved in conservation efforts, as he did in a recent Instagram post encouraging people to contact the U.S. Forest Service and tell it to reinstate the so-called roadless rule that restricts road-building and industrial activity in Tongass National Forest in southeast Alaska, which was exempted from the rule by the Trump administration in 2020. He sits on the board of the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, a nonprofit that lobbies policymakers to put more money toward restoring wetlands, defending the Clean Water Act and halting the sale of public land. The opportunity for an angler to catch a trout, or a hunter to shoot an elk, is predicated on preserving the ecosystems that sustain those creatures. It took European settlers in this country hundreds of years to figure that out; it took Rinella a while, too. In the early 1990s at Rinella’s high school in rural western Michigan, he and his friends started a club they called HATE, an acronym for Hunters Against Teenage Environmentalists. They made T-shirts with HATE emblazoned across the chest and threw a raucous wild-game-and-beer party they called a “HATE Bash.” In Rinella’s teenage mind, anyone who wanted to save the environment was anti-hunting, and he, in turn, was vehemently anti-them. His love for his family and friends was inseparable from his love of hunting, whether he was reeling in bluegill from the nearby pond with his two older brothers, trapping muskrats and beavers in icy lakes with friends or shooting squirrels out of oak trees with his dad. “I still have that HATE shirt in my closet to remind me,” Rinella told me. We were sitting in his backyard at the home he shares with his wife, Katie, and their three young children in an upscale neighborhood in Bozeman. The leaves on the aspen tree out front had gone riotously golden, and the branches were festooned with dozens of antlers and animal bones strung up like Christmas-tree ornaments. Rinella is away from home a lot, following the hunting seasons like some kind of migratory superpredator, often with cinematographers in tow. In November, he hunted black-tailed deer and caught shrimp in Alaska and then white-tailed deer in Nebraska; in December, he shot ducks in Louisiana. January means hunting Coues deer in Mexico; February, the piglike javelina in Arizona; March, Osceola turkeys and cobia fishing in Florida; April, wild turkeys in Mexico, Wisconsin and Michigan; May, black bears back in Montana. Summer means bowfishing and spearfishing in Florida and Louisiana; fall means moose in Alaska and elk in Colorado. His fans are constantly stopping him in airports.After graduating from high school, Rinella was set on becoming a commercial fur trapper, selling muskrat, beaver, mink, fox and raccoon pelts to be made into fur coats and hats. But things didn’t go as planned. Fur prices were falling. He supplemented his meager earnings by cutting and selling firewood and picking up graveyard shifts at a nearby green-bean-processing plant. Later, he’d get an M.F.A. in creative-nonfiction writing at the University of Montana and realize that his experiences as a scrappy, working-class kid who wanted nothing more than to be outside gave him a unique voice as a storyteller, on the page and eventually on the screen. But in those years after high school, he was still a fledgling fur trapper going into debt. One day one of his older brothers — both of them lifelong hunters who were by then studying wildlife biology in college — gave him a dog-eared paperback copy of Aldo Leopold’s “A Sand County Almanac.” “That was the beginning of my conservation awakening,” Rinella told me.Most people read Leopold as belonging to the pantheon of American environmental writers, with the likes of Henry David Thoreau, Rachel Carson and John Muir. Rinella reads Leopold as a fellow hunter. Leopold, his wife and his children all hunted, often with bows, and he derived many insights about the natural world and humans’ place in it from hunting. “A Sand County Almanac” was published in 1949 and has since sold more than two million copies and been translated into 14 languages. In one of the book’s essays, “Thinking Like a Mountain,” Leopold describes shooting a wolf and her pups in Arizona’s Apache National Forest when he was a 22-year-old forest ranger, a standard practice at a time when the government was busy trying to eradicate wolves and other predators. Leopold watched the wolf’s eyes go dead. “I was young then and full of trigger-itch,” he writes. “I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters’ paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf, nor the mountain agreed with such a view.” Watching the wolf die certainly didn’t stop Leopold from hunting. And reading about it didn’t stop Rinella from hunting, either, but it did force him to grapple with America’s ignoble past when it came to the slaughter of its wild animals. “I had no idea that we’d killed all the deer, and the turkeys and the ducks and then brought them back,” he told me. “Without knowing all that, I never thought to apply any kind of reverence toward wildlife; it was just there.”When European settlers arrived in the New World, they quickly set about killing animals with a similarly prodigal mind-set. They hunted for food, fur, hides and, in the case of buffalo, as part of a genocidal strategy to starve Indigenous inhabitants and claim the land. Before white people landed, some 50 million bison roamed North America; by 1889, there were just 1,000 left.The precolonial population of white-tailed deer crashed from an estimated 62 million animals to as few as 300,000. The Canada goose disappeared almost entirely. Wealthy hunters noticed the decline in species they were keen to hunt and, in the interest of maintaining free-roaming prey, set about trying to protect these animals and their landscapes. In 1887, more than a decade before Theodore Roosevelt became president, he founded the Boone & Crockett Club, America’s first conservation organization. Membership was restricted to 100 men who had each shot at least three different megafaunas from a list that included bear, bison, caribou, cougar and moose. These elite sportsmen were instrumental in passing the nation’s first wildlife-protection laws, starting with the Lacey Act of 1900, which made the interstate trafficking of illegally harvested wildlife a federal crime.As president, Roosevelt went on to designate 230 million acres as public land, creating 150 national forests, 51 bird sanctuaries and five national parks, in no small part because of his love of hunting. In 1937, Franklin D. Roosevelt, influenced by the earlier conservation work of his cousin, whom he admired, signed the Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act, also known as the Pittman-Robertson Act, a federal tax on guns and ammunition. A similar federal tax was later placed on fishing equipment. For more than 80 years, that money has made up the bulk of states’ conservation budgets, supplemented by sales of hunting and fishing licenses. Spend any amount of time among hunters, or even state wildlife biologists, and you’ll inevitably hear the claim that “hunting is conservation.”Tony Wasley, president of the Association of Fish & Wildlife Agencies and director of the Nevada Department of Wildlife, explained to me what that actually means. “We have to take care of 895 commonly occurring species in Nevada based on funding that comes from people’s desire to recreationally pursue 8 percent of those species,” he said. His email signature: “Support Nevada’s Wildlife … Buy a Hunting and Fishing License.”The pandemic has been a boon to conservation funding. Over the past two years, Americans have gone on an unprecedented gun-and-ammunition buying spree, spurred by some combination of a global pandemic, months of Black Lives Matter protests, a contested presidential election and a mob-led assault on the U.S. Capitol. The federal government is on track later this month to send state fish-and-wildlife agencies the largest distribution of gun-and-ammunition excise taxes ever. (The states divvied up $1 billion last year in taxes collected from the sale of firearms and archery and fishing equipment.)But a system that requires more people to buy more guns and ammunition to save monarch butterflies or tricolor blackbirds isn’t a system designed to address 21st-century problems. The conservation model paid for by hunters and anglers and gun buyers has successfully brought back once-scarce game species like white-tailed deer and wild turkeys, but it is woefully inadequate to protect the birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, amphibians and insects facing the twin threats of habitat loss and climate change. Congress is currently considering a bill called the Recovering America’s Wildlife Act that would drastically change conservation funding by sending an additional $1.4 billion a year to state and tribal wildlife-habitat conservation programs to shore up the 12,000 mostly nongame species that states have already identified as being at risk. First introduced in 2017 by Representative Debbie Dingell, a Michigan Democrat, and Representative Jeff Fortenberry, a Nebraska Republican, the bill appears to have broad, bipartisan support.Rinella doesn’t shy away from America’s ignoble past when it came to the slaughter of its wild animals. “I had no idea that we’d killed all the deer, and the turkeys and the ducks and then brought them back,” he says.Natalie Ivis for The New York Times“If it looks like I’m getting ready to shoot, put your fingers in your ears,” Rinella told me in the middle of a cattle pasture in northwest Nebraska. It was mid-November, and I had come to watch the taping of a future “MeatEater” episode at the peak of the white-tailed deer rut. Rinella, Newcomb the bear hunter, two hunting guides, three cameramen and two producers would be filming more than eight hours a day for six days. The afternoon I arrived, the group split in two: Newcomb went one way, and Rinella went another, carrying the only visible gun, a .30-caliber rifle slung over one shoulder, barrel pointed toward the sky. When he’s talking, Rinella talks a lot. When he’s hunting, he’s remarkably quiet, wordlessly loping over the terrain. Keeping pace beside him that day was a 28-year-old hunting guide named Jordan Budd, her blond hair pulled back into a ponytail. She leads hunting trips on this 7,500-acre stretch of tallgrass prairie where her family raises black Angus cattle. These two, the onscreen talent, wore lavalier microphones hidden under their camouflage. Close behind them trailed two videographers with cameras recording.The deer-stalking started in the dark every day and went until late morning; after a midday break, the hunters would head out again until after dark. One evening was spent walking quietly on a hill above a creek, periodically hunkering down, trying to disappear into the grass, while staring through binoculars and spotting scopes. Hunters call this technique spot-and-stalk, the goal being to see an animal before it sees you. “How much more legal light?” Rinella whispered. State regulations allow deer hunters to go 30 minutes past sunset but no further, and the sun was already a red smear on the horizon. Rinella took two plastic, knobby disks from his backpack and started clacking them together to simulate the sound of two bucks locking antlers (male deer can be lured in by the promise of a fight). Budd pulled her iPhone from her pocket, screen aglow with a text from Newcomb’s group, which had set up about a mile south of us: “Got one,” it read.By the time Rinella’s group reached the dead deer, the sky had gone dark enough to see the first stars. An inner circle of hunters flanked by cameramen stood around the buck, which was lying on its side in the back of a pickup truck. “He’s thin, man,” Rinella said, running his hand down the buck’s rib cage the way you’d pet a sleeping dog. Illuminated by the headlights of two pickup trucks, the hunters pulled the deer’s body down into the dirt and deftly slit open its underbelly from anus to sternum. After slicing through the muscle, Newcomb tugged the innards out, extracting the heart, a fistful of maroon-colored flesh ragged on one side where the bullet went through.“You want to keep the heart, Steve?” Newcomb asked.“Yeah,” Rinella said, as if the answer should be obvious; he would eat it.A producer tucked the heart into a Ziploc bag. They heaved the carcass back into the truck bed, and everyone piled into the cab and drove away, leaving behind a gleaming gut pile for the coyotes.The next day, Newcomb, Budd and the team’s “wilderness production assistant” drove the buck into Rushville, Neb., the nearest town, where it was checked in by a state employee at an ad hoc office at the Pump & Pantry, a gas station crowded with men in camouflage, some in baseball caps stitched with “Save the Habitat, Save the Hunt.” Back at the ranch, cameras on, the hunters strung the deer up in an ash tree by its hind legs and set about cutting off slabs of meat and vacuum-sealing them in plastic bags to be frozen and carried home on the plane in insulated carry-on bags. Later, the crew would take out the audio equipment and record a “MeatEater” podcast episode from the hunting cabin in which they discussed the hunt, layering one type of storytelling on top of another. Newcomb felt bad that he had shot the deer and Rinella hadn’t; Rinella is the star, the central focus, and the crew is deferential to him in that way people are to celebrities. “I call the buck Steve’s buck,” Newcomb says on the podcast.“That’s a good name for it,” Rinella replies.After three days of predawn mornings trailing the camo-clad, distracted by the monochromatic beauty of the unfamiliar prairie landscape, hoping to see an antlered deer and also relieved when we didn’t, I drove north toward the nearest airport in Rapid City, S.D., thinking about that bloody heart. I don’t want to be a hunter. I’m trying to eat less meat, not more. But for many people, hunting and fishing are a means to that visceral appreciation — let’s call it love — of the natural world that makes a person want to act to protect it. That feeling is big, an expansive common ground that needs to be filled with as many people as can be mustered, whether they get there armed with shotguns or birding binoculars or bright pink, Barbie-branded children’s fishing poles. After all, we, too, are animals reliant on imperiled ecosystems. Save the habitat, save ourselves.Malia Wollan is a contributing writer and the Tip columnist for the magazine. She is based in Oakland, Calif., and directs several reporting fellowships at the U.C. Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism. Natalie Ivis is a photographer who focuses on personal narratives as well as human intervention and interaction with nature. She currently lives in New Haven, Conn., where she attends the Yale photography M.F.A. program. More